I'll kick your bot!

All Genesis Common Board Messages get directed here. Discuss and comment!
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2352
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by gorboth » 28 Aug 2012 23:51

arcon wrote:I don't like it. You are supposed to be able to be an idiot. Stealing a kill from an enemy and looting the eq from said enemy is a way of building up tension between you and that enemy. We have to be able to steal kill and act like assholes.
Correct, this would ruin this dynamic. What we have to ask ourselves is what is the greater of the evils - not being able to harass true enemies with kill-stealing, or allowing people to use scripts with only the intention of responding if a wizard asks them if they are a bot, ruining gameplay for everyone else?

I'll make a poll.
G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Makfly
Champion
Posts: 615
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by Makfly » 28 Aug 2012 23:56

arcon wrote:I don't like it. You are supposed to be able to be an idiot. Stealing a kill from an enemy and looting the eq from said enemy is a way of building up tension between you and that enemy. We have to be able to steal kill and act like assholes.
That's a strange argument.
Can you please elaborate on why you think this is a must?
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Arcon

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by Arcon » 29 Aug 2012 00:16

Makfly wrote:
arcon wrote:I don't like it. You are supposed to be able to be an idiot. Stealing a kill from an enemy and looting the eq from said enemy is a way of building up tension between you and that enemy. We have to be able to steal kill and act like assholes.
That's a strange argument.
Can you please elaborate on why you think this is a must?

A team of AAs should be able to go and steal the kill from a ranger, show that ranger the finger and laugh in his or her face and dare him to do something about it. It is a way for more chaotic/evil characters to express themself towards enemies. I have had plenty of kills stolen from me and I still try not to do it myself because I am a "good" guy. But if I was a bad guy and I found someone having problems with a NPC that I wanted dead I should have the option to play the bad guy and steal that kill.

User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2352
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by gorboth » 29 Aug 2012 01:10

Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Makfly
Champion
Posts: 615
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by Makfly » 29 Aug 2012 08:54

arcon wrote:A team of AAs should be able to go and steal the kill from a ranger, show that ranger the finger and laugh in his or her face and dare him to do something about it. It is a way for more chaotic/evil characters to express themself towards enemies. I have had plenty of kills stolen from me and I still try not to do it myself because I am a "good" guy. But if I was a bad guy and I found someone having problems with a NPC that I wanted dead I should have the option to play the bad guy and steal that kill.
That seems like a very unimaginative, non-constructive way to roleplaying being enemies.
Actually it seems like basic griefing and just being real-life asshole in an old computer game.

Seriously, you (general 'you') must be able to come up with a better way of roleplaying a "bad guy".
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3619
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by Cherek » 29 Aug 2012 15:26

Laurel wrote:You loose (mostly forever) a long-time player when you are harsh with him/her. This loss is immediate. The gain (towards other players) is however both potential and time-related (i.e. not immediate). To me it means, that with the current activity level you just loose another name on the who-list and gain nothing.

Much better to give her/him other goals to strive for.

I still remember plenty idiotic deletions over "bouncing" (in-prepare-out-wait-in-execute-out) that were done INSTEAD of just changing the code. In other words players were punished for using code, just as it was given to them.

They are still doing it and will always do it. If you code something with a perk, expect the players to show you how this perk can be abused to it's full extent. If you reward something (ie. size/stats/growth), expect players to go a long way to reach that reward.

Punishing players for creativity (using the code given to them) and dedication (it IS still some degree of dedication to log in to gear up and grind - either manual or scripting) is a rather crap excuse to vent steam imo. Just simply change the rewards/goals/code/etc.

In short: positive motivation is key in a population the size Genesis has now, while negative motivation will drive more and more people away for good. Examples are plenty.
I think this is an excellent post and thats exactly how I feel about this too.

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3619
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by Cherek » 29 Aug 2012 15:38

One thing I feel about this topic is that this discussion is very black or white. Usually the reality is more grey.

Many say that we can just delete botters since they are merely NPCs or less who give nothing to the game. I think this is an extremely incorrect and dangerous view.

Most people who use scripts and sometimes bot unattended (which is a rather large part of the population I think) does not always do it. Usually people bot from work, or while doing other stuff iRL, etc. But that usually does not count for all their activity in the game. Even the most automated bot will also play the game actively at least sometimes. Gathering EQ, questing, most likely even RPing now and then depending on guild.

How about for example a ranger who RPs alot, often talk to other players, especially at night when the player has time to play, but uses scripts to herb during daytime at work? Yes unattended, yes illegal. You say we lose nothing by deleting this player?

I think most botting cases look like this. Yes there are some extremes who almost only bot perhaps, but I think the majority is like the exemple above. Part-time botters.

Best case scenario if caught is that they stop their botting and remain as active players, but it's also likely they'll probably stop playing completely if punished, and even more likely if they are deleted. Even if they have other chars they could play. You say we lose no more than an NPC by deleting them? I strongly disagree.

And dont get me wrong now, I do not like botters at all, but as Laurel said since the gain from botting is so big, and the bottable tasks, like herbing, smithing and grinding are pretty boring and repetitive tasks, I can understand them, and I am not sure hunting botters down is the best solution to the problem.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1815
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by Draugor » 29 Aug 2012 15:54

They disrupt playtime for real players with theire bullshit allwhile growing to sick sizes making them unkillable.

Facts are, that if we are going to allow robots run around, everyone will do it sooner or later, and what will the game be up for then? Aside from... well robots? Who'd want to code stuff for bots? Who'd want to keep a game running for people that doesent play but only exist as a number?

Show of hands from the wizards here, who'd want to code shit for a bunch of bots? We might aswell just make private rooms where an NPC of equal size of the player comes in so they can trigger kill it and reach fanta in no time.

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3619
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by Cherek » 29 Aug 2012 16:21

Draugor: My point has nothing to do with that, the point is, if a player is logged into the game 40 hours each week, and spends 30 of those botting and 10 playing actively, interacting, and RPing, we will lose those 10 hours of active play too if we decide to delete him/her for the 30 hours of botting.

All I am saying is that has to be considered too. You cant just say there is nothing to lose by deleting someone who bots, because most bots dont always bot.

User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2352
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: I'll kick your bot!

Post by gorboth » 29 Aug 2012 16:43

Cherek wrote:Draugor: My point has nothing to do with that, the point is, if a player is logged into the game 40 hours each week, and spends 30 of those botting and 10 playing actively, interacting, and RPing, we will lose those 10 hours of active play too if we decide to delete him/her for the 30 hours of botting.

All I am saying is that has to be considered too. You cant just say there is nothing to lose by deleting someone who bots, because most bots dont always bot.
I agree, with the stipulation that the botting will not be tolerated. We need to convince these players to stop botting. If they cannot be convinced, they will be killed. If that still doesn't convince them, they will be deleted. The choice is theirs, and the expectation is our responsibility to clearly communicate. That clear communication has been the issue.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/