Economies in Genesis

[Aeg]

I am interested in expanding the economies of Genesis. Perhaps we could discuss some of the following topics:

Creating Supply (I want to make things) and Demand (What-ever-shall-I-spend-my-800,000,000-plats-on?)
Crafting (Oo-oooooo basket-weaving!) and other non-combat activites (whats that?)
Creating the possibility of Player ownership of rooms (Housing? shops? pubs?)
Alchemy and herbing expansion

I know that some wizards and players are interested in this topic. Let's see what information we can muster.

[Rhynox]

Feel free to paste the mails I have sent you in the past here, they may feed the discussion (and if some stuff is too technical, you can leave that away). I would do that myself but I don't have them within my reach. That is, if you haven't deleted them on sight

[Aeg]

Rhynox, I would love to post my copy of your mail. It is a good starting block for this discussion. --Aeg

The definition of economy in Wikipedia reads "the realized social
system of production, exchange, distribution and consumption of
goods and services of an area. Genesis focuses on production and
exchange, where the characters loot items to be sold in shops and
nothing more. There is no distribution of items, and consumption
is limited to buying ship tickets, liquor and a few other items
that may be necessary for the profession (like leather and iron
for smiths, vials and mortars for rangers, etc) of the character.

Here are a few points I have discussed with wizards in the past,
that may give you an idea of what is happening with the current
system. Note that these observations have been valid for several
years, although they may have changed since I have done them.

Regarding production:
1. There are four common ways to obtain money:
a. Selling loot obtained after battle (includes gems)
b. Selling herbs obtained after herbing.
c. Selling goods manufactured by the character (potions made
by rangers, equipment made by smiths, etc)
d. Through quests, events, deliveries, gaming, etc. This also
includes any interaction between players, like tournament
prizes, auctions, deals, etc.
2. While every battlefield can become a production zone, few have
the required elements to become one: a shop with a relatively
low interest, a bank close to it, a good number of elements to
loot and, optionally, a good amount of experience to be done,
few characters near, and an accessible location.
3. Regarding other production ways, they are much slower than the
one obtained by loot trading. Herbing requires knowing an area
with herbs, not having people herbing the same area (monsters
spawn faster than herbs), and a lot of patience. Contrary to
looting, it does not allow for social interaction (since there
is one who cannot talk until finished herbing, and having the
other do nothing other than walk with the herbalist around).
Forging is more rewarding in terms of money, but it is also
much slower. Each item requires between 50 to 70 seconds to be
forged (and without pumping the bellow, even more), require an
initial investment (buying materials) and the items are heavy
compared to herbs, so they cannot be carried a good distance
away. The other ways of obtaining money are insignificant to
the overall currency.

Regarding exchange:
1. Most shops (if not all) have a cap per item they can buy, at 3
gold and 108 silver coins. I will call this item cap.
2. After training the trading skill up to a point, it does not
matter if you have it higher or not, since shops will hit the
item cap.
3. Certain shops are limited in what they can buy. For example,
the Rockfriend shopkeeper won't buy loot generated within the
guild. Similarly, the Kalaman shopkeeper won't buy items from
guards. I tried to suggest a similar change in Gont, but it
was rejected because a pirate town is supposed to buy from any
source.
4. Shops have unlimited money. Other shops like the ones found in
DikuMUDs have a limited amount of money, and shops will stay
open until running out of money.
5. Very few shops have working hours. In Solace it closes during
night.

Regarding distribution:
1. There is no distribution of money, nor goods. The banks are
global, and therefore money is available everywhere. Goods can
be sold in any shop with little requirements.
2. Most banks have fixed interest rate. The one in Bree offers an
interest rate per boot, which makes ideal for minimizing coins
when it hits the lower bound (which used to be 5%).

Regarding consumption:
1. Characters are only forced to buy ship tickets in Genesis.
Everything else is optional: food can be obtained from corpses,
water from rivers, healing from herbs, equipment from battles,
etc. If tickets were free, I believe anyone could survive for
a week without spending a single coin.
2. Other goods are limited to starting equipment (equipment that
is going to be used by the character only if there is nothing
better available, for example after a crash). Between warriors
the only item that is often bought is the steel tower shield
made by Bubba (at least until recently, it used to protect the
head, now it does not anymore... whether that hits the amount
of people who buys it or not is to be seen yet).
3. The only services used by the characters are messaging (small
messengers like urchins and pages) and transport (being that
wagons, carriages and ships to move between locations, and the
occasional ponies and horses that can be rented).
4. Even with optional items the amount of choices is very limited.
One can join the RMC to get a purse, one can buy an egg in the
Museum, a few bags and pouches, etc. There are very few items
that will stay with the character after a death or prolonged
inactivity.

Again, a few points may be obsolete by now, a few may be missing
the mark, but overall I believe they are on target.
Besides the trivial suggestions (expand production, exchange,
distribution and consumption), here are a few others that I would
be interested in (which may not fit what others have in mind):

1. Too much money in bank
Since there is nothing worth buying, characters rarely keep in
the bank more money than what they really need. I am guessing
the average is at a few thousands of platinum coins, obtained
upon joining a guild to have money to train. There are several
exceptions, like those who like competing at the RMC, or the
ones who are training or testing skills (smiths forge a large
amount of items in order to generate good ones, therefore they
may end up accumulating a good income even if that was not the
original goal).
A first step would be giving characters something to buy. Not
just items that are thought to be limited, like porcelain eggs,
but things that are actually useful. A few ideas that have
been proposed in the past:
a. Houses. Being able to buy yourself a horse, a place where
you can save and start from. Ideally, you would be able to
buy a location anywhere, but to prevent being used to start
near determined objectives, a new continent could be made.
To prevent ambushes (nobody wants to buy a house in the
middle of his enemies), the whole continent could be made
safe. Another way is to create a continent where each house
can be reached by determined movements, anyone missing one
gets lots in the middle of the woods, plains, desert, etc.
This way it could be simulated an extremely large area with
few inhabitants.
For the purpose of these ideas, let's suggest a price of
2,500 platinum coin for a one-room house, 5,000 platinum
coins for a two-room house, 10,000 platinum coins for a
three-room house, and 20,000 for a two-stories house with
six rooms (prices are low compared compared to what others
have suggested, like 50,000 platinum coins, because houses
should be affordable for everyone). It is possible to add
mortgage plans if necessary for those without enough money
to buy them.
b. Lands. Being able to "own" a land and use it for whatever
the character wants. For example, to groom horses that can
run for longer without getting tired, harvest food to sell,
plant determined herbs, prepare their own liquor, etc.
Land could be bought for 1,000 platinum coins per room, up
to 50 rooms per character (again, this is an example).
c. In Krynn there is a war system where guards are paid with a
guild fund which can be boosted by character's income. Each
area generates a revenue which goes to the war chest, and
whenever a new guard is sent to the area, the war chest is
used. Applying a similar idea to other continents (rangers
hiring more guards for their borders, mages and angmarins
hiring more assassins, etc).

2. New productions
Characters should find profitability in different actions. If
the character has lands, he could plant skunk berries he has
collected somewhere else, tend to them for some time, and then
be able to search for more skunk berries in his own lands for
a limited amount of time until he needs to plant them again.

3. Opening different shops
Shops nowadays are limited to general stores (that are able to
buy and/or sell equipment), jewelry, alchemy, herbalism and a
few miscellaneous ones (shops that sell determined items, like
messengers, gardening tools, etc).
Smiths can produce goods, but they cannot sell them. An idea
for the smiths was raised much time ago, to open a shop where
smiths could put their own items for selling. Others coming to
there would be able to buy the best items from smiths, instead
of guessing on the quality of them as it is right now.

[Tarax the Terrible]

I also agree that the economy is a great area where we could add more depth to the game.
I guess for most players the first question is what is in it for me?

Lots of super weapons and armours and more utility items like spell scrolls are the obvious glittering items for your average players magpie eye.

The kennel club for the old merc dogs, breeding pets etc being able to influence personality traits by training and breeding.

The auction house was a great start and I think it can be further expanded to make it even more usefull.
For example every magic item sold in a shop appearing on the auction house.

War, theres always money to be made in war...
Selling arms to the Dragonarmy troops?
Employment as a mercenary to defend the plains.

Tapakah mentioned before having your own castle etc.

I am really looking forward to hearing more ideas from the wizzies and the players.

It would be great to enter a time where money was very useful and even equalled power to some extent and going out and grinding Gont or getting lucky in Cadu Casino wasn't necessarily the best way to get it..

[Lindros]

While I would love to have things to spend my extra cash on, there's still the issue with
bank accounts gained through scripting/cheating. Until thats fixed, giving an edge to the
people who'se cheated in the past, is not the way to go if you ask me!

[Makfly]

While I would love to have things to spend my extra cash on, there's still the issue with
bank accounts gained through scripting/cheating. Until thats fixed, giving an edge to the
people who'se cheated in the past, is not the way to go if you ask me!

You can say that about PvP too.
I'd love to PvP in Genesis as it is, but...there's still the issue with
stats gained through scripting/cheating. Until thats fixed, giving an edge to the
people who'se cheated in the past, is not the way to go if you ask me!

[Alorrana]

**

[Lindros]

While I would love to have things to spend my extra cash on, there's still the issue with
bank accounts gained through scripting/cheating. Until thats fixed, giving an edge to the
people who'se cheated in the past, is not the way to go if you ask me!

You can say that about PvP too.
I'd love to PvP in Genesis as it is, but...there's still the issue with
stats gained through scripting/cheating. Until thats fixed, giving an edge to the
people who'se cheated in the past, is not the way to go if you ask me!

Of course thats a problem, but its a difficult one to solve(as its difficult to prove who scripted
in the past).

I just do not like the concept of rewarding people with huge bank accounts
gained through cheating.

Just like people who gained size through scripting should not get perks either, but thats a
problem we allready have, creating new problems is not a good option

[Lindros]

think it would be great if taxes from dragon armies, knights and neidars could be made
so they would have to supply their armies on the plains with the coins..

Perhaps x amount of plats for army to upgrade weapons and armours on your troops on the
plains.. perhaps an x amount of money to gait tougher forces... just a suggestion..

then the armies would need to recruit, fight more wars against perhaps tougher or
weaker enemies..

Dont know how the war systems works, but implimenting a cash flow to it would be cool

Since I have not been a Dragonarmy soldier in years, I do not know how the system works anymore.


But in the past we had to collect money to buy soldiers for the plains, but then for some reason
wizards stepped in and purged all the funds(still do not know why), and I think that killed of the
fun for alot of people, seing 100k or something just dissapear kinda sucked!